Comments on: Beg Your Pardon http://organon.jimhufford.com/2010/02/beg-your-pardon/ An instrument of Jim Hufford Thu, 12 Jan 2012 19:02:54 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: Len http://organon.jimhufford.com/2010/02/beg-your-pardon/comment-page-1/#comment-78 Len Mon, 15 Feb 2010 13:52:35 +0000 http://organon.jimhufford.com/?p=625#comment-78 I'm not opposed to making a deal. But the Republicans never compromise on anything unless they are carried kicking and screaming to the deal table. Why do we give in so readily? If Obama pardoned Bush et al today you can bet the radio talkers will spend all week hammering Obama for the pardon because it implies that Bush et al did something wrong. I don't believe that you can win against this crowd by giving in on anything first. We are not good with our message. The Republicans litter the talk shows with whatever message they picked today and do a good job reinforcing it. WIth the war crimes issue we should do the same. Put our smart, well-spoken people out there every day explaining how Gitmo, Iraq, and the execution of the War on Terror has indeed made us less safe. People are not going to figure it out on their own, we are fighting a war against propaganda and losing because their propaganda machine is far more effective than their policies. The Republic did not fail when Clinton was relentlessly investigated and impeached for lying about having an affair, and when many of his accusers were doing the same. Regarding my previous comment, I think the Republic can withstand the war crimes investigation of the previous administration. It will be painful, it will be ugly, we'll be called a lot of names. But the rule of law demands it. I’m not opposed to making a deal. But the Republicans never compromise on anything unless they are carried kicking and screaming to the deal table. Why do we give in so readily? If Obama pardoned Bush et al today you can bet the radio talkers will spend all week hammering Obama for the pardon because it implies that Bush et al did something wrong. I don’t believe that you can win against this crowd by giving in on anything first.

We are not good with our message. The Republicans litter the talk shows with whatever message they picked today and do a good job reinforcing it. WIth the war crimes issue we should do the same. Put our smart, well-spoken people out there every day explaining how Gitmo, Iraq, and the execution of the War on Terror has indeed made us less safe. People are not going to figure it out on their own, we are fighting a war against propaganda and losing because their propaganda machine is far more effective than their policies.

The Republic did not fail when Clinton was relentlessly investigated and impeached for lying about having an affair, and when many of his accusers were doing the same. Regarding my previous comment, I think the Republic can withstand the war crimes investigation of the previous administration. It will be painful, it will be ugly, we’ll be called a lot of names. But the rule of law demands it.

]]> By: Lee http://organon.jimhufford.com/2010/02/beg-your-pardon/comment-page-1/#comment-77 Lee Mon, 15 Feb 2010 00:25:43 +0000 http://organon.jimhufford.com/?p=625#comment-77 I agree in principle with what you're saying Len, but of course politics involves compromising on principles all the time. I don't think putting Americans in prison for war crimes, committed with support from the highest reaches of government, is politically feasible. Most Americans don't seem to believe we should hold ourselves to the same standards as we hold others. That's unfortunate, to say the least. But taking a principled stand that turns the country against Democrats may only ensure that we lose the power to influence events at all going forward. In that sense, some pragmatism on the matter is not only preferable but morally necessarily. That said, given how these things work, it's probably best for us to make your argument, and then be willing to compromise if it means we can actually do something (rather than 'negotiating with ourselves'). I've started thinking of this as the Ted Kennedy approach: fight like hell for what's right out of principal, but be willing to cut the deal when half a loaf is better than none. I agree in principle with what you’re saying Len, but of course politics involves compromising on principles all the time. I don’t think putting Americans in prison for war crimes, committed with support from the highest reaches of government, is politically feasible. Most Americans don’t seem to believe we should hold ourselves to the same standards as we hold others. That’s unfortunate, to say the least. But taking a principled stand that turns the country against Democrats may only ensure that we lose the power to influence events at all going forward. In that sense, some pragmatism on the matter is not only preferable but morally necessarily.

That said, given how these things work, it’s probably best for us to make your argument, and then be willing to compromise if it means we can actually do something (rather than ‘negotiating with ourselves’). I’ve started thinking of this as the Ted Kennedy approach: fight like hell for what’s right out of principal, but be willing to cut the deal when half a loaf is better than none.

]]> By: Len http://organon.jimhufford.com/2010/02/beg-your-pardon/comment-page-1/#comment-76 Len Sun, 14 Feb 2010 23:06:46 +0000 http://organon.jimhufford.com/?p=625#comment-76 How are the acts the previous administration absolutely unacceptable if you pardon them? The precedent then is, break the law, get a pardon. We can't seem to even "pardon" people who took out deceptive loans they can't pay back because "they knew what they were getting into." If the previous administration hired incompetent malpracticing attorneys like Yoo and Gonzoles to tell them it was OK to commit war crimes then they too must be held accountable. No pardons. The acts these guys committed are war crimes when any other government in the world commits them. If we pardon them because we did it when we were scared then that is the end of the United States and we deserve to fail. How are the acts the previous administration absolutely unacceptable if you pardon them? The precedent then is, break the law, get a pardon. We can’t seem to even “pardon” people who took out deceptive loans they can’t pay back because “they knew what they were getting into.” If the previous administration hired incompetent malpracticing attorneys like Yoo and Gonzoles to tell them it was OK to commit war crimes then they too must be held accountable. No pardons.

The acts these guys committed are war crimes when any other government in the world commits them. If we pardon them because we did it when we were scared then that is the end of the United States and we deserve to fail.

]]> By: Lee http://organon.jimhufford.com/2010/02/beg-your-pardon/comment-page-1/#comment-75 Lee Sun, 14 Feb 2010 17:14:55 +0000 http://organon.jimhufford.com/?p=625#comment-75 While I think this would be great, I'm also pretty certain that Republicans would scream and howl about it just as loud as a more direct prosecutorial approach, and that it would be used as another excuse for them not to compromise or constructively participate on any of the other issues before our nation. But if this plays better for swing voters, sure, let's do it. I don't have any particular bloodlust for the people who did these things, I just want to establish firm precedent that it's absolutely unacceptable. While I think this would be great, I’m also pretty certain that Republicans would scream and howl about it just as loud as a more direct prosecutorial approach, and that it would be used as another excuse for them not to compromise or constructively participate on any of the other issues before our nation. But if this plays better for swing voters, sure, let’s do it. I don’t have any particular bloodlust for the people who did these things, I just want to establish firm precedent that it’s absolutely unacceptable.

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